A question for you reloaders: what powder scale do you like? The local store was out, and looking online there seems to be a wide variety of styles, technologies, and prices. And comments on what works well for you would be very much appreciated.
Same ask about calipers. And case trimmer.
Man, it's not looking like I'm saving any money reloading ...
27 comments:
I don't remember what brand mine is, but I have the Lee balance that came with the kit, and a cheap electronic one from Midway. Like $30 cheap. They both work fine; the balance is a hair more accurate but much slower to use.
Same deal with calipers - a set of $30 electronics from Midway. Frankford Arsenal or something like that, I think.
You can absolutely go to top-of-the-line if you want, but if you're doing plinking/range rounds like I am, budget items work fine. No need for Lyman automeasures and Starrett calipers. :-)
The savings come down the road after the initial capital investment.
However you'll probably shoot more, so you're really just buying more rounds as a lower price per round.
Besides, reloading is fun.
I use the RCBS 505 beam scale, a digital caliper from Frankfort arsenal that Midway sells for about $20.00, and an RCBS case trimmer, which is going to be supplemented by a power trimmer dedicated to 5.56mm and .308 cases since I go through so many of those rounds.
You may be losing $.02 per round but you'll make it up on volume.
I bought a digital caliper from DX.com, for less than $15, pretty happy with it after I put good batteries in it. Their batteries and flashlight aren't to bad either.
I bought an RCBS 10-10 scale a lifetime ago and never looked back. Expensive, but an excellent value, and lasts forever with good treatment. I would not hesitate to buy a 505 or a 10-10 on E-bay, and have sold several there myself.
Electronic scales are fast and easy, but I have yet to hear of a good one that's cheap, or any of them that last forever without problems.
Caliper... amazingly, any decent one made of steel will do fine, even the cheap ones. Avoid the electronic ones. In my experience every one that takes batteries eventually quits. The analog dial type... no problems at all. Like any precision measuring instrument, treatment and technique are everything.
Trimmer: I favor a Hornady manual unit which I have mounted on a short board so I can use it on my lap while I watch TV, or relax on the back deck.
If you are just trimming a single caliber of rifle, there is nothing wrong with the LEE trimmer setup, once you power it with a battery operated low RPM drill.
My recommendation is that you buy two scales.
First, you need to have a precision beam balance; for calibration purposes, as a check scale etc...
RCBS is the default, but Lyman, Hornady, and Redding all offer decent options.
The second, is the one that will pay for itself in time save in the first 1000 rounds...
There is no excuse not to buy a decent electronic scale.
I actually have two; both of which are attached to automatic powder dispensers; the Hornady, and the RCBS.
You couldn't pry them away from me with crowbars and dynamite.
Oh and as to a case trimmer... trust me on this one, and just spend the extra money now; again, you'll make up the time and effort in the first few thousand rounds you load...
Get a Hornady case prep center, or something similar. I've got one, and I wouldn't willingly go back to either my old RCBS power trimmer, or manual trimming.
As others have said, get an RCBS 505 scale.
If you get and electronic scale, spend as much money as you can afford ($200 minimum) and treat it like fragile glass. This is something I learned the hard way.
For a digital caliper, I spent $10 at Harbor Freight for one. And, I've been very happy with that one.
For case preparation as others have said, go ahead and get a decent powered setup. I have found that these pay for themselves in the time saved.
I've been using a metal base Lyman balance since the last Ice Age. The Lee trimmer has an available clamp screw with a 1/4" hex so it will chuck in a cordless driver, drill, or a small lathe. But, I already had the lathe.
Any cheap non-electric one will work.
Any of the main line beam scales will work fine, I have a dislike for the Lee scale as I have several of them from buying kits and etc and have found them to be inaccurate when tested with Lyman scale weights.
I like the Lee trimmers when you add an electric drill and the ball handle. I shoot a lot of Makarov and have to make the brass out of 9mm brass. This requires trimming a millimeter off of each one and the Lee trimmer does an excellent job. You don't have to set up for each caliber as the Lee parts are already set by the factory. I used to use a Lyman trimmer and was unsatisfied with it, an entire set of lee trimmers was cheaper and worked better. I have a number of milsurp rifles and when I used to shoot them, I found the Lee trimmer to work well for them also.
I use a PACT BBK scale. I like those Lee trimmers, they're cheap enough to get a complete one per cartridge. Chuck 'em in a drill and it only takes a few seconds per case.
No one has ever saved any mney by reloading, it is the only way for a non bazillionaire to shoot enough to get really good, though.
Buy the Frankford Arsenal dial caliper from Midway. Or pick one up at a pawn shop. As long as the dial says 0.00 when you close ot all the way and it opens an closes freely there are no worries. Put me in the camp that says no electronic calipers.
I got the PACT digital scale that goes with the PACT digital powder-mesure - it meters it out pretty quick. Any cheap digital caliper that reads-out in numbers too - I can't do/read vernier measurements or slide-rule type thingies, I was schooled torpedoed in California by NewMath, so my number and numerological skills are more suited to Astrology than Astronomy.
I have used the Lee powder dippers with great success for many loads. Granted, they work on volume, not weight, but they do work. A balance beam scale will work, and I think Lee has one that is very reasonable. Will you really weigh each charge? Maybe at first, and as a QC procedure, but I tend to think most reloaders don't. As I mentioned, load density is important, stay away from low density powders.
Digital calipers are fine, and easy for these old eyes to see. But the 10-20 dollar ones all come from the same factory in China, and are of inconsistent quality. Get the best measuring tools you can, that's what people who make a living making and measuring things use. I read on one site that the fellow would only use vernier calipers, as they always worked and so on. If you want a dial caliper, I mentioned Helios as one I liked, Mitutoyo makes nice ones as are the Swiss ones sold under the name Brown & Sharpe (Etalon makes good stuff, too, they may make the B&S stuff, I forget.) . Use mikes for outside diameters, not calipers. I use digital ones for my mikes as well. As I say, lately Starrett has been a disappointment.
I agree: get a balance scale and a decent electronic one. Lee balances are ok, but you'll wish you had a better one. I like my dillon, but others are just as good.
You needn't spend more than $50 for a decent electronic scale.
I like the electronic calipers from Harbor freight. good value. have a second one to check it against, but generally, they either work or they don't.
Electronic scales and calipers are commodity items now. No reason to spend big bucks when the accuracy is just as good, and they are all likely made in China anyway.
Buy the best case trimmer you can afford. Don't scrimp there.
Anyone who says you have to spend $200 for a scale or a set of calipers is either outdated or snobbish, and really doesn't know what he/she is talking about.
I have a Lee scale that I quit using when I got my Frankfort Arsenal electronic scale. I have a Lyman bare bones basic case trimmer, and I am contemplating a Lee case trimmer kit, that I can chuck into a drill. Manually trimming 50 cases sucks. With that I have a chamfer and deburring tool from Grafs and Sons, and I use a Frankfort Arsenal analog caliper. Remember, you're only measuring case lengths and Cartidge Overall Lengths with this thing.
Wow, thanks guys!
i agree you should not skimp on measuring tools, and my take on trimming is similar. i use the Dillon sizer/trimmer dies and motor, which are expensive and you have to buy Dillon's trim dies but once it's all set up the speed of operation makes it all worth it.
Scales - it depends on what you are weighing and why ..
For dispensing powder from a measure, a beam scale is the way to go. For pistol, non full charge loads, I'll set the scale to 10 times the desired load, dispense 10 charges, weigh and adjust the powder thrower to give the weight set. I know the average weight will be so close that I can't tell the difference to individually weighed loads (not sure if that's a compliment to the method or a condemnation of my shooting skills). Check again every 50 rounds.
For rifle, if I'm developing a load, set the desired weight on the scales, I throw JUST below the weight and use a .243 case twirled between my fingers to trickle powder to bring the charge up to the required weight. Otherwise set the thrower to give you the weight needed, check every 10 loads.
If I want to sort bullets, then go for the electronic scale - the instant readout is what's needed - fiddling with a beam balance is a pain ...
The RCBS 10-10 scale uses a screw type weight for fine adjustment, I prefer the stirrup type weights as they are easier to set. My scales are a set of Pacific ones, virtually identical to the RCBS 505's .
Watch out for the electronic scales. Some of the cheaper ones must have the weight placed centrally on the platter - towards the edge and it'll give a false reading. Try before you buy if possible.
Verniers - go good quality digital unless you have excellent eyesight – vernier scales are as good as anything but my eyes need a bit more lamp oil nowadays (they were fine 30 years ago). Tip - keep a selection of bullets of different calibers and use them as check gauges, handling them as little as possible and gently.
Case trimmers, I agree that unless you are a masochist, buy a power setup and/or a case prep station.
Phil B
Scales - it depends on what you are weighing and why ..
For dispensing powder from a measure, a beam scale is the way to go. For pistol, non full charge loads, I'll set the scale to 10 times the desired load, dispense 10 charges, weigh and adjust the powder thrower to give the weight set. I know the average weight will be so close that I can't tell the difference to individually weighed loads (not sure if that's a compliment to the method or a condemnation of my shooting skills). Check again every 50 rounds.
For rifle, if I'm developing a load, set the desired weight on the scales, I throw JUST below the weight and use a .243 case twirled between my fingers to trickle powder to bring the charge up to the required weight. Otherwise set the thrower to give you the weight needed, check every 10 loads.
If I want to sort bullets, then go for the electronic scale - the instant readout is what's needed - fiddling with a beam balance is a pain ...
The RCBS 10-10 scale uses a screw type weight for fine adjustment, I prefer the stirrup type weights as they are easier to set. My scales are a set of Pacific ones, virtually identical to the RCBS 505's .
Watch out for the electronic scales. Some of the cheaper ones must have the weight placed centrally on the platter - towards the edge and it'll give a false reading. Try before you buy if possible.
Verniers - go good quality digital unless you have excellent eyesight – vernier scales are as good as anything but my eyes need a bit more lamp oil nowadays (they were fine 30 years ago). Tip - keep a selection of bullets of different calibers and use them as check gauges, handling them as little as possible and gently.
Case trimmers, I agree that unless you are a masochist, buy a power setup and/or a case prep station.
Phil B
Saving money? Who said anything about saving money? My evil plan continues! MU-WHAAAA-HAHAHAHAHA!
Oh wait, I probably said I was saving money. Which is true, now that I'm up and operational. And casting, yes, I definitely mentioned casting. I save enough on .45s to make up for the whole equipment purchase. let's not talk about hours invested or how long it takes to be confident in the results.
Scales: I'll +1 the electronic, and go as high end as you can afford (mine's a Dillon I got way back when they first offered them, but now there are several brands - including Dillon - that have better scales. Keep it in the padded box it came in when you're not using it, and store it off the reloading bench. Beam balance scales are OK, I used one for years, still have it; they have to be babied, too - if left on the bench during reloading the beam pivots will eventually wear into the pivot bases from the vibration of operating the press, reducing the accuracy (the constant vibration doesn't help electronic scales, either). And, if you're putting together a bunch of precision loads for which you're weighing each charge, electronic scales register much faster than beam ones, and I think, more accurately (my Dillon electronic will show a "weight change" of .1-.2 grains from the air pressure of passing my hand over the scale). No matter what scale you get, get a full set of check weights, or borrow a set and find household stuff (bolts, nuts, jacketed bullets, etc.) that closely approximate the check weights, then label their measured weight and store your "personal check weights" where they won't get abused.
Trimmer - if you're not doing much trimming a hand crank (mine's a Lyman) works. If you do a bunch, go electric. I've got the Dillon, and it works with their sizing die. I can't imagine trimming 1K of 308 brass with a hand crank.
FYI, get a couple of the Wilson deburring tools - you'll need to debur the case mouth after trimming, no matter how you trim them. I stick mine in the drill press, adjust speed to slowest and do the two-step to debur inside, then reverse the deburring tool to do outside. Deburring 20-40, do it by hand. A thousand cases, use the drill press.
Caliper - Carteach is right, a digital electronic caliper will use a lot of batteries. If you have good eyes, a dial type works fine, but since my digital goes to .0001, has a large display, and switches between inch and metric, I'll keep buying batteries. Starrett is the best, followed by Browne & Sharpe, and Mitutoyo (mine's a Mitu) but those are much spendy (esp. the Starretts). Any of the precision tool guys sell gage blocks to verify caliper accuracy, which might allow use of a cheaper caliper.
BTW, what are you using for a powder measure? My Dillon has its own measure (FYI, if you go with multiple calibers, a press that allows fast tool head swaps, each with its own measure is real handy), but for short runs which are mostly for calibers I don't use the Dillon for (45-70, 300 WM, etc) I've got an RCBS Uniflow (had a Duo-Flow for years, had to replace it when RCBS discontinued parts for it).
Money-yep, welcome to our world. Your first reloaded round (of any caliber)will probably cost you around $700-1,000. But reload two and the price drops to under $500 per.....
I picked up a cheapo ($10) electronic scale at harbor freight a couple years ago.
It has worked fine. I have a couple small calibration weights that I picked up at a garage sale many years ago so it is pretty easy to check and see if it's reading accurately. So far the only problem is making sure that it is setting on a flat level surface and I set the item I'm weighing near the center of the scale.
Do those things and it has worked fine.
Some of the comments reminded me that inexpensive electronic scales are sensitive to the environment in ways that mechanical ones are not - namely, temperature and humidity. Also, a low battery on a digital scale can cause really bed errors. Keeping some check weights around is a good idea. Check your scale's accuracy at the beginning of each loading session.
RCBS Rangemaster 750 digital scale. Weighs to 0.1 gr. Been using it for a couple of years. I weigh propellants around 4.2 grains as well as the heads around 200. Handles both just fine. All such scales are precision instruments - care for them accordingly.
FYI: In the final stages of calibrating the throw on the Dillon 650, I will weigh - in one big batch - ten throws. While any one throw could have a small error, weighing ten lets me know that the average should be smack on to a tenth of a grain.
I haven't used the mechanical balance beam scale any after cross-checking the digital scale a couple of times and finding it far, far better.
As to saving money by reloading, it's true that you'll shoot as much as you can afford to make, or buy. So you'll shoot more by reloading. That's not a bad thing.
And rather than buying two scales, get a set of check-weights to verify the scale near the weight you'll be throwing. (I've verified my RCBS digital at 4.0 when throwing 4.2 grains and it's never been wrong - but I do check the "zero" abt every fifty rounds and sometime push the re-zero button for a couple of tenths correction. (Reloading room temperature varies a lot.)
Most any basic beam type scale works fine. My first was an RCBS 10-10 and now I have a Lyman and both worked fine. I don't see why the Lee would not be good enough. No need to spend too much there. Now, I use the Lee powder measure which seems to work well as does all my Lee stuff. If you end up reloading tons of ammo then the more expensive stuff shines. Otherwise, go basic.
I have a hornady automatic powder measure/scale. it saves massive amounts of time and llows me to load to a higher precision than ever before. Worth the money. Loman and RCBS make one like it that is just as good.
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